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It makes no sense to me!

本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛It looks like many accountants are still struggling in the basic accounting even though they already have years of accounting experience. Accrued expenses are accruals with invoices and accrued liabilities are accruals without invoices? It makes no sense to me!

Let us back to the accounting basis. Why you need to accrue costs at the month end? Because you are doing accrual-based accounting and thus you need to accrue costs incurred but not booked before period end ( please note: “booked” does not mean “paid”). If you are doing cash-based accounting, no accruals are needed (for example, capital expenditures)

What are the differences between the accruals with invoices and those without invoices? NO DIFFERENCES! We need to debit expenses accounts and credit accrued liabilities accounts for both- the same journal entries which means that they are sitting in the same accounts in the balance sheets and income statements. In the auditing practice, for those accruals without invoices, auditors usually still ask for invoices or payments (you will get them after the month end) to check the reasonability of the accrued liabilities in your book, the same as for the accruals with invoices.

I would get sick of it if somebody asked me in the interview what were the differences between accrued expenses and accrued liabilities. If you would like to answer the question, I think Qinying2012 provided the best answer: “ I would like to say that accrued liability is from the b/s perspective, meanwhile the accrued expense is from income statement perspective.” I think you know the accounting principals very well.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
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  • The prepaid accounts, Accrual liabilities (Accrual liability, AP, judgmental accruals,etc) in Chinese----
    本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛看到很多人还在为这些概念纠结,感觉可以在周末写点什么。(正好下班早)

    我解释的是按我们公司,一个traded on TSX 的Corporate来作为蓝本的。我review一些下面财务经理(包括CGAs, CMA)送上来的财务报表,然后sign off我负责的。 VP controller 再sign off全部的报表。最后送到审计。VP controller 是 CA. 她本人规划的财务构架和reporting规范。要说的是我们的财务体系是非常规范和严谨的,Year end必须在3周内完成。其他公司的可能不一样,想必道理是通的。

    The prepaid accounts 就是prepaid expense, 如果哪家公司用Accrued expense来代替prepaid expenses, 我是服了。每个月,我们会expense the prepaid accounts, 像年费,保险,etc. 注意这里的词是expense!,和后面的有关联。The prepaid accounts 包含 很多不同prepaid的费用,但原理都是一样的。

    Accrual liabilities 用的是个复数!因为里面包括很多不同的细节,它们是有区别的。我只给出3个有代表的。这里必须先把Accrued 概念搞清楚,有个同学给的解释挺好:An accrued expense is an expense that an entity has already incurred, but for which there is not yet any expenditure documentation in the accounting system. 这里有两个概念很重要:incurred和documentation. AP是有自己的Cut off的,但是没有录入系统的当期的invoices也必须进系统的,因为是当期incurred. 这样我们就用reversal entries去accrue 这些invoices. 下个 period, AP会用我们给的accounts 去process the payments. 这些是费用就落到了当期了。但它们不是被AP在当期真正pay掉的费用。所以叫accrued expense. 另外一点,这些是从vendor送来的invoices,是真实发生的费用,有具体值的。这里就解释了为什么我们叫“expense” prepaid accounts. 这些有真正invoices就被Accrue 到AP. 这些accrued 的 invoices 是要做copy以备审计的。

    有些费用是每个月都发生的,但没有收到invoices,又不能不入账。Ok,就用accrual liability 去accrue 这些没有真实backup的costs,所以我在前面的贴子用了estimated costs. 因为这些costs没有backup,必须放到一个schedule 上,审计的问到这些没有凭据的accruals我们必须给出合理的解释。不是自己想accrue多少就accrue多少的。

    最后一个是judgmental accruals, 也有专门的schedule track的。为什么叫judgemental? 因为这些costs更加难以准确地衡量,像Sales bonus. 它们的数值是要EBIT出来后最大的头头根据之前的budget决定的。

    希望这段解释可以帮助大家理解。很多东西很简单,但你没做过想用书本上的概念是很难搞通的。更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
    • 非常有用,谢谢
    • Thanks! 解释的很清楚!
    • 我觉得解释的很清楚。我不做AP 但是常常听Controller这样教育我们的AP,我也被耳熏目染了一番。
    • 想请LZ在详细解释一下这句话
      “我们就用reversal entries去accrue 这些invoices. 下个 period, AP会用我们给的accounts 去process the payments”。
      具体如何操作reversal entries。AP过了cut off day, 真正收到vendors invoices,还需要录入系统吗?如何配合 reversal entries 操作呢?非常感谢。
      • 还有问题?OK.你得给我买杯咖啡耶!你估计是不理解 Reversal 的意思。月底book的entry在下个月系统会自动生成一个反向的entry.这个反向的entry就把AP在下个月输入的payment offset了。
        • It makes no sense to me!
          本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛It looks like many accountants are still struggling in the basic accounting even though they already have years of accounting experience. Accrued expenses are accruals with invoices and accrued liabilities are accruals without invoices? It makes no sense to me!

          Let us back to the accounting basis. Why you need to accrue costs at the month end? Because you are doing accrual-based accounting and thus you need to accrue costs incurred but not booked before period end ( please note: “booked” does not mean “paid”). If you are doing cash-based accounting, no accruals are needed (for example, capital expenditures)

          What are the differences between the accruals with invoices and those without invoices? NO DIFFERENCES! We need to debit expenses accounts and credit accrued liabilities accounts for both- the same journal entries which means that they are sitting in the same accounts in the balance sheets and income statements. In the auditing practice, for those accruals without invoices, auditors usually still ask for invoices or payments (you will get them after the month end) to check the reasonability of the accrued liabilities in your book, the same as for the accruals with invoices.

          I would get sick of it if somebody asked me in the interview what were the differences between accrued expenses and accrued liabilities. If you would like to answer the question, I think Qinying2012 provided the best answer: “ I would like to say that accrued liability is from the b/s perspective, meanwhile the accrued expense is from income statement perspective.” I think you know the accounting principals very well.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
          • 估计你要回去重新看看会计基础课了。Balance sheet 的基本等式是: Assets = Liabilities + Equity. 你直接把所有的负债记在一个liability下的了。还有,所有的Revenue 对应的AR都有Write off的可能。哪会计准则搞个 Unearned revenue 是吃饱了饭撑的。
            • 注意:Accounts 用的是个复数!
              If the accrued expenses in the same category, they should be coded to the samd b/s and expense account, no matter billed or unbilled.

              By the way, I have been worked with several big public companies, not the small ones listed in TSX with market cap less than $10B.
              • 没有打击你的意思,你的领悟能力太差。没有接触过的东西,理解起来也不至于这样费劲。建议再看看qingying2012 (qingying) 最后回答的帖子,你考虑这两个terms的时候不要把具体的科目参合进去。你要考虑的是会计的规范和流程,以及repoting的规范。
          • 按书本的教条,你说的是没有错的。假如我们的会计系统没有那么的复杂,不存在AP等各模块和GL系统的对接,accrual的概念会更简单纯粹。风的例子是非常操作细节层面的,很典型的模块众多的大公司的处理法,
            但是关于reversal entries来记录晚到的AP invoices那一段,新手得当心别掉进细节的陷阱里去。

            对一个简单明了的小公司来说,每月月底付账已经截止,那只代表“对不起,发票发晚了的供应商们,等下月吧”,不存在什么AP系统关闭,不可以再输入晚收到的AP invoices的问题。已经发生的费用,收到invoices的,直接进当月费用和提高当月A/P余额。从内部控制的角度看,反而是建立定期和供应商的对帐机制比较重要。
        • 我们公司就是你说的这样做的。你说的Reversal Entry直接在G/L 里做,下个月自动在G/L里Post一个反向的,A/P正常做的帐在S/L里,最后Post后就Offset了。
        • 请楼主喝咖啡
          虽然是空头支票,对楼主的耐心细致回答表示感谢。掌声响起来。。。。
      • 同感。这句话,我认真地读了数遍,我也没看懂。答非所问,看来是一项重要的领导素质,这个可以学习一下。
        • 你可以再学习2点。我问我领导问题的时候,她经常是反问我问题,最后让我自己把答案想出来;Google出来的东西,你要琢磨更多次再说”Great”.
    • 写得很好,我们公司也是这么做的。accrued expenses需要一些back up,有可能是上一个月数据,或者是real unprocessed invoice. 记录以后可以下一个月reverse,也可以年底时候true up.
    • 谢谢LZ解释得这么详细。非常细节性的实际操作。受益匪浅!多谢了。
      从开始参与这个话题到现在得到这么详细的实际操作解说,我的理解是万事不离其中,会计分期的原则。我们做这些accruals就是要把当期的费用都反应在当期的报表上。说到Reporting,这些东西搞不对,这报表就不能反当期实际的经营状况。要我说Expense还是expense,是从income statement的角度说的,liability还是liability,是b/s上的项目。这个Accrual expense 还有accrual liability 只是个说法上的问题。坏了,又是捣浆糊了。:)
      LZ的这番解释足够让人请N杯咖啡了:)
    • 简言之,都是liabilities,既然叫人家expense了,就得拿个 backup 来证明一下。Reversal那一段,看了很多遍也没看懂,理论上是对的,不同公司可能会有不同操作吧。
      • 我觉得这个reverse entry 是直接post在g/l里,是AP s/l 与g/l reconcile item. 这些entries在第二个月初直接在g/l 里reverse掉了。expense做到上个月了。但payments继续在当月process。我个人的理解哈。也许是胡说八道,呵呵。大家继续讨论:)
        • 这样就 make sense了。咋一看,我还以为他们 AP 可以accrue invoices。
      • accrue是为了真实报告出财务情况。月初反向记帐是因为AP还要继续输入帐单。 这些帐单马上成为EXPENSE ACCT, AND LIABILITY. 如果不马上把月底Entry调过来就会double entry.
        • agree!
      • When an invoice for which accrual has been provided is received, there are two ways to record the invoice.
        本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛One is to record the invoice by debiting the accrual. This seems to follow natually from the accounting theory and is readily understandble by someone without pratical experience. The other is to record the invoice to whatever expense account it should have been recorded. And then, to avoid double entry, the orginal accrual is reversed. The second way is preferable in practice because: (1) You don't need to inform A/P which accrual account s/he should record the invoice to. As the A/P function is typically separated from the G/L function except for very small companies, the A/P does not need to know whether any accrual has been provided for any invoice. S/he just records any invoice to the usual expense account in the period the invoice is received. (2) You don't need to reconcile one more account. The accrual is based on estimate and may or may not match the exact invoice. So there is always a difference in the accrual account, and you will have to periodically reconcile it and clean up the minor difference.

        To illustrate how this reveral works, here is another example with payroll. Unpaid payroll expenses for the current period are usually accured at the end of the period by debiting payroll expense and setting up a payroll accrual. When the payroll staff runs the payroll in the next period, it simply credit cash and debit the payroll expense account regardless whether the pay belongs to the previous or the current period. Accordingly, the accrual needs to be reversed. Otherwise, the payroll expenses will be overstated because of the double dipping.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
        • Thanks. I use to be in charge of GL, so I am familiar with the second approach.
          It's just the way s/he put it made me think their AP was able to record period end accruals, which wouldn't make sense unless their system allows for posting to future period.
    • 写得太好了!我就是不明白为什么有那么多人还很纠结于“REVERSE ENTRY"上,看来" HANDS ON EXPEREIENCE" 确实是需要地。