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唉!最后一贴。我从一开始就指明方向:要解决LZ的问题,关键是S.248(1) THE DEFINITION OF "PRIVATE HEALTH SERVICES PLAN"。讨论health and welfare trust 整个就偏离了LZ想要的答案。老虎聪聪已经好意地给出了具体的reference,为什么不先研究一下就匆忙得出结论呢?

本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛请自己读一下吧:
June 26, 2012

Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXXX:

Re: Private Health Services Plan

We are writing in reply to your letter dated May 8, 2012, wherein you
inquire whether a self-administered plan would qualify as a private health
services plan (“PHSP”).

Based on your letter, it is our understanding that the employer will
reimburse each of their employees for medical and dental expenses, upon
the submission of receipts, up to a maximum of $XXXXXXXXXX per year.
However, it would appear, based on your letter, that the employer can
terminate this agreement with its employees without notice at its sole
discretion.

Our Comments

Benefits received or enjoyed by an employee in respect of, in the course
of, or by virtue of an office or employment are generally taxable as
income from that office or employment pursuant to paragraph 6(1)(a) of the
Income Tax Act (the “Act”). However, subparagraph 6(1)(a)(i) of the Act
specifically excludes benefits derived from the contributions of a
taxpayer’s employer to or under a PHSP.

Pursuant to the Act, a PHSP means a contract of insurance in respect of
hospital expenses, medical expenses, or any combination of such expenses
or a medical care insurance plan, a hospital care insurance plan, or any
combination of such plans. In Interpretation Bulletin IT-339R2, Meaning
of Private Health Services Plan, the Canada Revenue Agency (the “CRA”) has
set out the requirements that must be met in order for a plan to be
considered a PHSP.

Paragraph 3 of IT-339R2 specifies that a PHSP must be a plan in the nature
of insurance. Therefore, it must represent (i) an undertaking by one
person, (ii) to indemnify another person, (iii) for an agreed
consideration, (iv) from a loss or liability in respect of an event, (v)
the happening of which is uncertain. As indicated in paragraph 7 of
IT-339R2, an arrangement where an employer reimburses its employees for
the cost of medical care or hospital care may be considered a PHSP where
the employer is obligated under the employment contract to reimburse such
expenses incurred by the employees or their dependants. While a cap on
benefits undoubtedly reduces the risk to the employer, it is our view that
an otherwise qualifying plan would not automatically be disqualified as a
PHSP solely by reason of the inclusion of such a feature. Where the
employer is uncertain as to the amount of claims an employee will submit,
the employer is at risk for the amount up to the cap. However, if the
plan or arrangement is such that it can be terminated at any time by the
employer, without notice, at its sole discretion, there may be some doubt
as to the level of risk undertaken and whether this would be in fact a
plan of insurance. This appears to be the case in the present instance.

In addition, as provided in paragraph 4 of the bulletin, coverage under a
PHSP must be in respect of hospital care or expenses, or medical care or
expenses, which normally would otherwise have qualified as medical
expenses under the provisions of subsection 118.2(2) of the Act in the
determination of the medical expense tax credit. A description of
eligible medical expenses can be found in Interpretation Bulletin
IT-519R2, Medical Expense and Disability Tax Credits and Attendant Care
Expense Deduction.

The interpretation bulletins mentioned herein are available on the CRA’s
Web site at www.cra.gc.ca.

We trust that these comments will be of assistance.

Yours truly,


G. Moore
For Director
Business and Trusts Division
Income Tax Rulings Directorate
Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs
Branch

February 16, 2012

Dear XXXXXXXXXX :

Re: Private Health Services Plan

We are writing in response to your letter of July 28, 2011.

You are asking whether a particular vision care plan (the "Plan") would
qualify as a private health services plan (PHSP) and whether amounts
reimbursed by an employer to its employees via payroll for vision-related
expenses would be non-taxable.

Further to the telephone conversation of February 10, 2012 (El-
Kadi/XXXXXXXXXX ), you indicated that the Plan had been set-up as a
separate plan that was self-administered by the employer without any
insurance company or other third-party involvement. You also indicated
that the arrangement required employees to submit receipts for vision
care-related expenses, and that coverage under the Plan was strictly
limited to those items listed in the Collective Agreement between the
Employer and the employees' union, up to a maximum dollar amount, toward
the cost of prescription eyeglasses or contact lenses, eye examinations,
and eye correction surgery for employees and their dependants.

Written confirmation of the tax implications inherent in particular
transactions is given by this Directorate only where the transactions are
proposed and are the subject matter of a request for an advance income tax
ruling submitted in the manner set out in Information Circular 70-6R5,
"Advanced Income Tax Rulings", dated May 17, 2002. This Information
Circular and other Canada Revenue Agency ("CRA") publications can be
accessed on the internet at http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca. Since the particular
transactions that you referred to in your correspondence are complete, we
cannot comment on your specific situation. However, we are prepared to
provide the following comments which are of a general nature only, and
which are not binding on the CRA.

Our comments

Benefits that an employee receives or enjoys in respect of, in the course
of, or by virtue of an office or employment are generally taxable as
income from that office or employment pursuant to paragraph 6(1)(a) of the
Income Tax Act (the "Act"). However, subparagraph 6(1)(a)(i) specifically
excludes benefits derived from the contributions of a taxpayer's employer
to or under a PHSP.

A PHSP is defined under subsection 248(1) of the Act as a contract of
insurance in respect of hospital expenses, medical expenses, or any
combination of such expenses or a medical care insurance plan, a hospital
care insurance plan, or any combination of such plans. The determination
of whether a plan of insurance qualifies as a PHSP is a question of fact.
However, the Agency has set out its views on the issue in Interpretation
Bulletin IT-339R2, Meaning of Private Health Services Plan. Paragraph 3 of
IT-339R2 specifies that a PHSP must be a plan in the nature of insurance.
Therefore, it must represent (i) an undertaking by one person, (ii) to
indemnify another person, (iii) for an agreed consideration, (iv) from a
loss or liability in respect of an event, (v) the happening of which is
uncertain. In other words, a particular plan or arrangement would not
qualify as a PHSP unless it involves a reasonable element of risk that is
assumed by the insurer, whether that insurer is the employer or a third
party. While a cap on benefits undoubtedly reduces the risk to the
employer, it is our view that an otherwise qualifying plan would not
automatically be disqualified as a PHSP solely by reason of the inclusion
of such a feature. Where the employer is uncertain as to the amount of
claims an employee will submit, the employer is at risk for the amount up
to the cap. However, if the plan or arrangement is such that it can be
terminated at any time by the employer, without notice, at its sole
discretion, there may be some doubt as to the level of risk undertaken and
whether this would be in fact a plan of insurance.

In addition to the above-mentioned requirements, it is our view that
medical expenses covered under a PHSP must normally qualify for the
medical expense tax credit (METC) under subsection 118.2(2) of the Act, as
indicated in paragraph 4 of IT-339R2.

Based on paragraph 7 of IT-339R2, an arrangement where an employer
reimburses its employees for the cost of medical care or hospital care may
be considered a PHSP where the employer is obligated under the employment
contract to reimburse such expenses incurred by the employees or their
dependants. The consideration given by the employee is considered to be
the employee's covenants as found in the collective agreement or in the
contract of service. In all cases, however, a particular arrangement or
plan must contain all the elements, as described above, to qualify as a
PHSP.

We trust that the above comments will be of assistance.

Yours truly,

G. Moore For Director Business and Partnerships Division Income Tax
Rulings Directorate Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
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Replies, comments and Discussions:

  • 自雇人士的医保牙保是否可以从公司的账上实报实销?我可以去买保险,然后由保险公司报销。为什么不能实报实销呢,作为自雇人士自定的benefit。可不可以?
    • If you are self-employed you don't have a "Company", your self-employed income is taxed at your marginal tax rate on your personal tax return just on a different schedule so claim the dental as medical expense when you file your tax return.
      • 谢谢回复。我是有限公司。我在自己的有限公司领薪水。公司可以给员工买医疗保险(买药,看牙等)。这部分开销是公司税前的expense。我是否可以不买保险,直接把收据拿到自己的公司以同样的方式报销?区别就是我免除了保险公司这个middle man。
        • 不行。这叫偷税漏税。
        • 你必须要建立一个HAWP account 才可以这样做。HAWP account 就是专门为此目的而设的一种trust account,要有trustee管理,专款专用,每年的trustee费用不低,不一定适合小公司
        • 看来只有在报个人收入时申报medical expenses最划算了?
        • 你看牙100,公司给你报销100,公司收入减去100,你的收入增加100。没省多少税吧。
    • My suggestion: looking for a good accountant. Although I know the answer, it's inappropriate to provide tax opinions on the forum. Sorry! Please disregard my posting if you don't like it. Anyway, please find some hints.
      The medical expenses you described are within the definition "private health services plan" under s.248(1) of the Income Tax Act. However, the provision itself does not directly answer your question. The CRA issued a number of technical interpretations in this regard. As I know, only very few practitioners have enough knowledge in this area. Some medium/large - sized accounting firms (especially with a tax department that subscribes for CCH or Carswell tax database) should be able to give you the right answer.
      • 要找个好会计师这点同意,但如果说只有大firm才有能力处理HAWP就jump to conclusion了。HAWP是新出台政策,也许很多会计师不了解,但小公司恰恰是HAWP的受益者,小firm 的客户一般比较小,利用HAWP反而更加普遍,小firm处理HAWP税务事宜乃家常便饭了
        • 唉!其实我的回帖就是针对你的“你必须要建立一个HAWP account 才可以这样做。HAWP account 就是专门为此目的而设的一种trust account,要有trustee管理,专款专用,每年的trustee费用不低,不一定适合小公司”。我很委婉了。
          现在你要跳出来,那我直接告诉你:针对lz的问题,你的回答是错的。CRA发过一个TI就是回答了lz一模一样的问题。没有研读Income Tax Act,相关的case law和administrative policies就不要直接给出tax advice。PERIOD.
          • 请问你提供过HAWP相应服务吗?我是凭经验之谈,如果你没有实际处理过,我也跟你免谈。PERIOD!!!我只是这1,2天路过这里。。。飘过。。。
            • 这么沖!我倚老卖老告诉你:BIG4的TAX SENIOR MANAGER几年前我都已经做腻了。你的用词“必须”,“凭经验之谈”等等都是不一个受过专业税法训练的tax specialist。 +1
              • “Some medium/large - sized accounting firms (especially with a tax department that subscribes for CCH or Carswell tax database) should be able to give you the right answer” 这是TAX SENIOR MANAGER说出来的专业话吗?
                “subscribes for CCH or Carswell tax database” 需要花多少钱?花几百快钱subscribes 一下就可以give the right answer了吗?就是qualified TAX SENIOR MANAGER 了吗?
              • Big4 的SM 也不是God,趴还 犯错误呢。有必要说的那么神秘吗? 具体 tax return,SM 还不一定做的过specialist 呢,你凭那条说她不对,直接说哦。
          • 你说的是Interpretation Bulletins 吗?能给个具体的IT number,我们好去研读一下吗?我虽然不做个税,相信二月莺飞决不是信口开河。//另外我们几个都是同行,如果您现在还在安省四大做tax manager,我们不认识的可能性不大。 您就不用委婉了,有什么话请直接指正。
            • 好几年没到这论坛了,昨晚在导读上看到关于CGAC-CPA合并的话题才点进来看看,还是一如既往地争执不休。。。太佩服你及几位版主大人的耐心和服务精神了。。。
              • 开忙之前闲的,下星期就都鸟兽散了(^O^)
            • 版主好。我一般就是每天浏览一下,很少发言。你可以search我的有限的回帖,只有有时针对一些技术难题,争论不休,我才给出一些权威资源给大家参考。
              针对一个具体问题,从我进入TAX这一行,我的TAX PARTNERS都是不断教导:即使知道答案,也不要直接给出。任何一个TAX OPINION都必须引用PROVISIONS IN THE ACT,CASE LAW OR ADMINISTRTIVE POLICY。我想安省的BIG4也是如此吧。另外,我在BC,很遗憾没法与论坛的大拿面对面交流。
              • 我 search过您的贴子。首先我不认为您说的全对,其次我真没见过 big 4 里的sm 您这么说话的。
                • OK. 首先我尊重您是版主。但是您的回帖很奇怪。我到现在都没有说答案应该是什么。我只不过提醒大家如果没有把握,没有权威资源的支撑,不要匆忙提供TAX ADVICE。不同意吗?请教你们安省pwc的tax partners不是这样教导的吗?谢谢。
                  • Tax advice网上灌水还是有区别的。是不是以后讨论每个jv 都要给个 IFRS 出处。你说她不对,直接给个对的方向就是了。反正我要去问PWC 的sm ,他们会引导我解决问题,不是拿大砖头拍我。
                    • 不敢苟同:人家来你的会计版问税务问题,就是相信这里有专业人士。如果答案没有权威资源的支撑,更坏的是错误答案,别人依据它做出错误的决定。至于research方向问题,我从一开始到第二个回帖就给出明确了:S.248(1) and CRA的TI。请复核。
              • 既然你在BC,那你熟悉安省税法吗?你熟悉安省针对private health services plan的相关税法吗?如果不熟悉,就别倚老卖老了,在税法领域里倚老卖老最行不通。
          • 我认为侠客行是对的.我读过有关的TI,还有tax windows files.我可以把document number 贴出来-- 我觉得应该是侠客行指的那个.我前几天也看到这个问题,犹豫了一下没有说话.
      • 别着急啊,得等我回家开电脑才能找到。另外我的是CCH的。话说我要是贴上全文,不会有版权问题吧^_^
        • 你给个 IT号码,或者我明天自己查一下。
          • 可以啊,得等我回家先。IT直接在CRA网站上有。你Google一下应该能找到。comfort letter number 我得开电脑。--我知道不应该叫comfort letter 可我现在忘了叫什么了。
          • 2012-0447041E5 Private Health Services Plan June 26, 2012/ IT-339R2 Meaning of private health services plan' (1988 and subsequent taxation years) AUGUST 8,1989.还有别的不过这两个算是比较相关的了.BTW,明天你问了你的SM,可不可以把他/她的分析给我们讲一下?
            • IT-85R2 - Health & Welfare Trusts for Employees, Revenue Canada, July 31, 1986.
              本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Where these types of benefits are not provided by an employer to its employees directly through an insurance plan, there are no specific provisions in the Act to exclude such benefits from an employee's income. The Canada Revenue Agency ("CRA") administratively allows employees to benefit from a trust arrangement as long as the particular trust established by the employer qualifies as a health and welfare trust ("HWT") as described in Interpretation Bulletin, IT-85R2, Health and Welfare Trusts for Employees. A particular trust would not qualify as a HWT where the benefits provided by such a trust are not restricted to the type of benefits described in paragraph 1 of IT-85R2 (i.e., a group sickness or accident insurance plan ("GSAI Plan") , a private health services plan ("PHSP"), a group term life insurance policy, or any combination thereof.

              On the other hand, benefit plan must conform to policies established by CRA and the legislation governing in each Province. Therefore, I think we should focus on Ontario Private Health Services Plan in this case. Meanwhile, I did a quick research about HAWP, I think 二月莺飞 bring a very valuable point about how to manage a small business case.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
              • Good job! You got the point. HAWP I mentioned above is the Health & Welfare Trusts arrangement under IT-85R2.
              • 唉!最后一贴。我从一开始就指明方向:要解决LZ的问题,关键是S.248(1) THE DEFINITION OF "PRIVATE HEALTH SERVICES PLAN"。讨论health and welfare trust 整个就偏离了LZ想要的答案。老虎聪聪已经好意地给出了具体的reference,为什么不先研究一下就匆忙得出结论呢?
                本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛请自己读一下吧:
                June 26, 2012

                Dear Mr. XXXXXXXXXX:

                Re: Private Health Services Plan

                We are writing in reply to your letter dated May 8, 2012, wherein you
                inquire whether a self-administered plan would qualify as a private health
                services plan (“PHSP”).

                Based on your letter, it is our understanding that the employer will
                reimburse each of their employees for medical and dental expenses, upon
                the submission of receipts, up to a maximum of $XXXXXXXXXX per year.
                However, it would appear, based on your letter, that the employer can
                terminate this agreement with its employees without notice at its sole
                discretion.

                Our Comments

                Benefits received or enjoyed by an employee in respect of, in the course
                of, or by virtue of an office or employment are generally taxable as
                income from that office or employment pursuant to paragraph 6(1)(a) of the
                Income Tax Act (the “Act”). However, subparagraph 6(1)(a)(i) of the Act
                specifically excludes benefits derived from the contributions of a
                taxpayer’s employer to or under a PHSP.

                Pursuant to the Act, a PHSP means a contract of insurance in respect of
                hospital expenses, medical expenses, or any combination of such expenses
                or a medical care insurance plan, a hospital care insurance plan, or any
                combination of such plans. In Interpretation Bulletin IT-339R2, Meaning
                of Private Health Services Plan, the Canada Revenue Agency (the “CRA”) has
                set out the requirements that must be met in order for a plan to be
                considered a PHSP.

                Paragraph 3 of IT-339R2 specifies that a PHSP must be a plan in the nature
                of insurance. Therefore, it must represent (i) an undertaking by one
                person, (ii) to indemnify another person, (iii) for an agreed
                consideration, (iv) from a loss or liability in respect of an event, (v)
                the happening of which is uncertain. As indicated in paragraph 7 of
                IT-339R2, an arrangement where an employer reimburses its employees for
                the cost of medical care or hospital care may be considered a PHSP where
                the employer is obligated under the employment contract to reimburse such
                expenses incurred by the employees or their dependants. While a cap on
                benefits undoubtedly reduces the risk to the employer, it is our view that
                an otherwise qualifying plan would not automatically be disqualified as a
                PHSP solely by reason of the inclusion of such a feature. Where the
                employer is uncertain as to the amount of claims an employee will submit,
                the employer is at risk for the amount up to the cap. However, if the
                plan or arrangement is such that it can be terminated at any time by the
                employer, without notice, at its sole discretion, there may be some doubt
                as to the level of risk undertaken and whether this would be in fact a
                plan of insurance. This appears to be the case in the present instance.

                In addition, as provided in paragraph 4 of the bulletin, coverage under a
                PHSP must be in respect of hospital care or expenses, or medical care or
                expenses, which normally would otherwise have qualified as medical
                expenses under the provisions of subsection 118.2(2) of the Act in the
                determination of the medical expense tax credit. A description of
                eligible medical expenses can be found in Interpretation Bulletin
                IT-519R2, Medical Expense and Disability Tax Credits and Attendant Care
                Expense Deduction.

                The interpretation bulletins mentioned herein are available on the CRA’s
                Web site at www.cra.gc.ca.

                We trust that these comments will be of assistance.

                Yours truly,


                G. Moore
                For Director
                Business and Trusts Division
                Income Tax Rulings Directorate
                Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs
                Branch

                February 16, 2012

                Dear XXXXXXXXXX :

                Re: Private Health Services Plan

                We are writing in response to your letter of July 28, 2011.

                You are asking whether a particular vision care plan (the "Plan") would
                qualify as a private health services plan (PHSP) and whether amounts
                reimbursed by an employer to its employees via payroll for vision-related
                expenses would be non-taxable.

                Further to the telephone conversation of February 10, 2012 (El-
                Kadi/XXXXXXXXXX ), you indicated that the Plan had been set-up as a
                separate plan that was self-administered by the employer without any
                insurance company or other third-party involvement. You also indicated
                that the arrangement required employees to submit receipts for vision
                care-related expenses, and that coverage under the Plan was strictly
                limited to those items listed in the Collective Agreement between the
                Employer and the employees' union, up to a maximum dollar amount, toward
                the cost of prescription eyeglasses or contact lenses, eye examinations,
                and eye correction surgery for employees and their dependants.

                Written confirmation of the tax implications inherent in particular
                transactions is given by this Directorate only where the transactions are
                proposed and are the subject matter of a request for an advance income tax
                ruling submitted in the manner set out in Information Circular 70-6R5,
                "Advanced Income Tax Rulings", dated May 17, 2002. This Information
                Circular and other Canada Revenue Agency ("CRA") publications can be
                accessed on the internet at http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca. Since the particular
                transactions that you referred to in your correspondence are complete, we
                cannot comment on your specific situation. However, we are prepared to
                provide the following comments which are of a general nature only, and
                which are not binding on the CRA.

                Our comments

                Benefits that an employee receives or enjoys in respect of, in the course
                of, or by virtue of an office or employment are generally taxable as
                income from that office or employment pursuant to paragraph 6(1)(a) of the
                Income Tax Act (the "Act"). However, subparagraph 6(1)(a)(i) specifically
                excludes benefits derived from the contributions of a taxpayer's employer
                to or under a PHSP.

                A PHSP is defined under subsection 248(1) of the Act as a contract of
                insurance in respect of hospital expenses, medical expenses, or any
                combination of such expenses or a medical care insurance plan, a hospital
                care insurance plan, or any combination of such plans. The determination
                of whether a plan of insurance qualifies as a PHSP is a question of fact.
                However, the Agency has set out its views on the issue in Interpretation
                Bulletin IT-339R2, Meaning of Private Health Services Plan. Paragraph 3 of
                IT-339R2 specifies that a PHSP must be a plan in the nature of insurance.
                Therefore, it must represent (i) an undertaking by one person, (ii) to
                indemnify another person, (iii) for an agreed consideration, (iv) from a
                loss or liability in respect of an event, (v) the happening of which is
                uncertain. In other words, a particular plan or arrangement would not
                qualify as a PHSP unless it involves a reasonable element of risk that is
                assumed by the insurer, whether that insurer is the employer or a third
                party. While a cap on benefits undoubtedly reduces the risk to the
                employer, it is our view that an otherwise qualifying plan would not
                automatically be disqualified as a PHSP solely by reason of the inclusion
                of such a feature. Where the employer is uncertain as to the amount of
                claims an employee will submit, the employer is at risk for the amount up
                to the cap. However, if the plan or arrangement is such that it can be
                terminated at any time by the employer, without notice, at its sole
                discretion, there may be some doubt as to the level of risk undertaken and
                whether this would be in fact a plan of insurance.

                In addition to the above-mentioned requirements, it is our view that
                medical expenses covered under a PHSP must normally qualify for the
                medical expense tax credit (METC) under subsection 118.2(2) of the Act, as
                indicated in paragraph 4 of IT-339R2.

                Based on paragraph 7 of IT-339R2, an arrangement where an employer
                reimburses its employees for the cost of medical care or hospital care may
                be considered a PHSP where the employer is obligated under the employment
                contract to reimburse such expenses incurred by the employees or their
                dependants. The consideration given by the employee is considered to be
                the employee's covenants as found in the collective agreement or in the
                contract of service. In all cases, however, a particular arrangement or
                plan must contain all the elements, as described above, to qualify as a
                PHSP.

                We trust that the above comments will be of assistance.

                Yours truly,

                G. Moore For Director Business and Partnerships Division Income Tax
                Rulings Directorate Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                • How exactly PHSP works?
                  For my understanting, a PHSP is a CRA approved health and welfare trust that allows corporations and the self-employed to deduct health and dental expenses. Small businesses that are incorporated (one shareholder is sufficient) can establish a plan, as can sole proprietors with one arm’s-length employee. A trust company administers the PHSP holding funds in trust to pay claims and will scrutinize claims, and issue appropriate accounting records for tax purposes. The trust takes advantage of Section 248(1) of the Income Tax Act.

                  IT-85R2 indicates" The purpose of this bulletin is to describe the tax treatment accorded to an employee health and welfare benefit program that is administered by an employer through a trust arrangement and that is restricted to "
                  (a) a group sickness or accident insurance plan;
                  (b) a private health services plan,
                  (c) a group term life insurance policy, or
                  (d) any combination of (a) to (c).

                  So the PHSP IS a health and welfare trust.
              • 好象有一个misunderstanding.因为如果你直接读IT-85R2 Health & Welfare Trusts for Employees,那么你已经直接讨论trust了,Employer deductible.employee nontaxable,但是要交费用.而我提供的pulications,尤其是那封信说明,如果qualify as PHSP,没有必要建立trust(费用),
                employee 还是nontaxable。二月莺飞在建立Turst 没错,花钱罢了,但是未见得是"必须"

                还要多了解客户情况和需求才能给出合适的建议。

                IT-85R2 is archived?

                那个case很混乱。
                • 我没有仔细分析,但感觉PHSP和HWT就是
                  HWT, A corporation may provide benefits under an HWT to an individual who is both an employee and a shareholder of the corporation. These benefits may be received for income tax purposes by the individual in his or her capacity as an employee or as a shareholder. These types of plans are ideal for corporations providing benefits to a small number of employees.

                  PHSP, on the other hand, both incorporated and unincorporated businesses (self-employed proprietors, partnerships) can have PHSPs, but there are different restrictions on each. The treatment for corporations is more favorable than that for unincorporated businesses.
                  - A PHSP can be set up for a corporation with only shareholders as employees
                  - Payments for medical expenses of shareholders will only qualify if the shareholder received the benefit in his/her capacity as an employee, not as a shareholder.

                  Therefore, choosing the HWT or PHSP, it will depends on who will be directly covered by.
                  • 所以我说要看客户需求。就目前楼主所说的,他想cover自己的medical,没有mention家人,(let alone 我们并没问楼主家人是不是shareholder)。 所以建trust未必是“必须”。因为2012-0447041E5 和楼主的情况很类似,(我贴在下面出来了,risk being sued for copyright),
                    本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛那么根据这封信CRA的position,楼主(和other employees)可以和company sign一个employment contract stating company will reimburse medical expenses,就是体现了“where the employer is obligated under the employment contract to reimburse such expenses incurred by the employees or their dependants. ”, 甚至如果有expense上限,也没关系因为信里说 “While a cap on benefits undoubtedly reduces the risk to the employer, it is our view that an otherwise qualifying plan would not automatically be disqualified as a PHSP solely by reason of the inclusion of such a feature. ”。

                    所以,说句不太严谨的话,楼主只需要sign个employment contract,明白写出公司负责reimburse medical expenses就好了。并且家属,比如spouse, children 都自动cover 在这个plan里as dependent,是不是shareholder都没关系。

                    这里没有任何费用。而楼主(和其他other employees)也不taxable。

                    只是comfort letter 指出不可以是company可以单方面终止的,“However, if the plan or arrangement is such that it can be terminated at any time by the employer, without notice, at its sole discretion, there may be some doubt as to the level of risk undertaken and whether this would be in fact a plan of insurance. ” 我认为还是因为如果可以单方面终止,risk就是controllable了。就不是“the happening of which is uncertain”

                    但是我没有这么建议楼主是因为,我没有自己或看别人处理过这个情况。虽然我认为应该理论上没有问题。而且,我同意侠客行的不是很多practitioner很了解,尤其是小firm。我知道有CA firm partner,who is very specialized in tax 建了trust。当然,第一他可能有别的考虑。第二他不知道不代表别人不知道。只是我自己的感觉。

                    我知道帖子已经很长了,可是还是要说一下关于那个case,第一,一个random的case不能作为根据,没有authority。第二那个case很明显倾向性。它没有提及cost for setup 和ongoing administrative fee,非常misleading,因为,你省的税可能都交了费用了。

                    My two cents。更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                    • 刚刚发现侠客行贴了,那我就不贴了。: )
                    • 我不认为Trust是必须,二月也说Trust不一定适合LZ。 LZ在问题中强调不要通过保险公司,而PHSP是通过一系列insurance policy完成的, 所以二月才说可以用trust来完成LZ的意思,但不适合LZ是严谨的。
                      248(1) indicates that “Private health services plan" means

                      (a) a contract of insurance in respect of hospital expenses, medical expenses or any combination of such expenses, or
                      (b) a medical care insurance plan or hospital care insurance plan or any combination of such plans, except any such contract or plan established by or pursuant to
                      (c) a law of a province that establishes a health care insurance plan as defined in section 2 of the Canada Health Act, or
                      (d) an Act of Parliament or a regulation made thereunder that authorizes the provision of a medical care insurance plan or hospital care insurance plan for employees of Canada and their dependants and for dependants of members of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the regular force where such employees or members were appointed in Canada and are serving outside Canada

                      June 26, 2012的 case什么都说明不了,只能说PHSP在具体操作上其实是有很多limits. 而HWT 的tax issus在这里就没有讨论。
                      • 我也最后一贴吧,一并回到下面二月莺飞。首先LZ 问“我是否可以不买保险,直接把收据拿到自己的公司以同样的方式报销?”二月莺飞的回答是“你必须要建立一个HAWP account 才可以这样做。”注意,二月莺飞说的是“必须”,就是除了开这个account,不存在其他的方法。然后
                        本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛他又说”HAWP account 就是专门为此目的而设的一种trust account,要有trustee管理,专款专用,每年的trustee费用不低,不一定适合小公司“。注意, 二月莺飞说的不合适是因为费用,而不是因为有别的alternative。

                        根据他的回答LZ,只有开这个HAWP account,或者不开,没别的可能。

                        那么你刚刚写的 “。。。所以二月才说可以用trust来完成LZ的意思,但不适合LZ是严谨的', 是不符合事实的,你修改了事实,因为二月莺飞说的不是“可以“而是 ”必须”。

                        这就是为什么侠客行说 “针对lz的问题,你的回答是错的”。不是建trust account不对,而是”必须”建trust account 不对。因为存在其他方法,即使不开trust account。

                        正如他后来所说的“讨论health and welfare trust 整个就偏离了LZ想要的答案”。因为LZ的问题并没有限定条件,除了”免除了保险公司这个middle man”。他并没有说着个方法一定是什么性质的,比如一定不能是个insurance contract。至于你说的“而PHSP是通过一系列insurance policy完成的”也不是一定的,可能就简单到一个employment contract。

                        June 26, 2012的 comfort letter讲的就是一份employment contract stating company will reimburse medical expenses就是一个alternative。写信的人问的就是”whether a self-administered plan (指的就是这个employment contract) would qualify as a private health services plan (“PHSP”)。当然不会讨论HWT ,写信人并没有说关于开一个这样的account的问题。

                        之所以提出这封信,是因为它给出了CRA的position, Roughly speaking,只要不是可以company单方面终止的,一个合适的employment contract 就可以serve as qualified PHSP.

                        下面是回答二月莺飞的20:26的帖子的。

                        “光纸上谈兵能解决客户问题吗?”

                        ------- 所以我很早就看到这个问题但没有试着去回复的原因。因为我虽然知道有这些CRApublication的存在,毕竟自己没做过。再说了,退一万步讲,CRA的letter并不是纸上谈兵,是CRA的position,对CRA来说是binding。所以不是”纸上谈兵“,LZ也可以写封信去问CRA,他如果和自己的公司签这样的一份contract,CRA的position 是什么。你觉得会是怎样的回答呢?

                        “我说的建立HAWP就是建立PHSP,不管是self-administered 还是professionally administered,要想让medical expense deductible to employer but not taxable to employee就必需有个qualified PHSP(HAWP)。这不就是S.248(1) 所要求的吗?”

                        --------不,你说的不是建立PHSP, 你说的是一个非常具体的account,是一种会incur trustee费用的account。'你必须要建立一个HAWP account 才可以这样做。HAWP account 就是专门为此目的而设的一种trust account,要有trustee管理,专款专用,每年的trustee费用不低,不一定适合小公司"


                        你我意见的分歧是在于要怎样建立PHSP。就算按你所说的“sign个employment contract,明白写出公司负责reimburse medical expenses“ ,这种contract本身也就是个土"HAWP"。问题是自己这么写写就能成为qualified PHSP了吗?


                        ----- 是的CRA的comfort letter 就是告诉那个taxpayer,一份合适的employment contract就是qualified PHSP。CRA是binding的。可以再读读那封信。

                        随便建立个trust 也不一定是qualified PHSP。要建立个qualified PHSP不是你想象得那么简单,这不是我的能力范围也不是我的工作范围,我就不多嘴了,我只提供HAWP建立后相关的compliance服务 。

                        ----- 不清楚还有什么条件,或者其他复杂的PHSP type,不敢妄言,但是CRA的letter shows 一份合适的employment contract就是qualified PHSP。

                        最后在罗嗦两句,我知道我有点mean了。网友回答问题都是好心,而且术业有专攻,即使可能有不对或不够严谨的地方也非常正常。 只是这个帖子好像一上来就火药味很浓,我也不能冷静了。自我检讨一下吧。

                        罢了,最后一贴。。。更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                        • 你一直在咬文嚼字。我只是给楼主指示了一个途径,并简短介绍了一下HAWP trust,三言两语能严密地说明一切吗?
                          建立个HAWP trust是我知道的唯一affordable, feasible 的途径,如果你能指明其它更好的途径你尽管指出好了,有那么多精力动不动长篇大论地非要否定那不是唯一途径,何不直接指出你的solution? 你费那么多口舌帮楼主解决一丝半毫了吗?可以明确地告诉你“只需要sign个employment contract,明白写出公司负责reimburse medical expenses就好了”是100%行不通
                        • 聪聪不要生气,看看我这贴子。
                          本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛当LZ问"自雇人士的医保牙保是否可以从公司的账上实报实销?"他的问题是十分模糊的,我们并不知道所有需要的信息,所以没办法讨论。

                          我当时也第一时间想到 Private Health Services Plan (PHSP),但是因为我只知道概念,并不知道具体的操作方法和税务处理方式,就没啃声。这点儿,我们是一样的。

                          不过通过这几天我们的热烈讨论我还是学习了很多东西,具体的和你汇报一下。

                          1. 如果self-employed 没有公司的情况下,客户可以通过 Personal tax的 Medical expenses deduction来claim eligible medical expenses for them and their spouse。 这就是lemon_lime同学在最开始提出的建议,而且lemon_lime同学也强调这是在没有公司的情况下。

                          2. 我能想到的是客户通过成立公司,买商业保险来解决Medical expenses。 一部分Insure premium可能可以deduct,但有可能要成为个人的taxable benefits。这种方法就是所以criss同学说"公司收入减去100,你的收入增加100。没省多少税吧。"但是这种方式也是有一定优势的,在这里就不具体分析了。

                          3. 就是通过Health &Wlfare Trust, 包括PHSP和HAWP.

                          在这里可以查到的Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) resources包括:
                          -T4002 Business and Professional Income (unincorporated businesses) - search for Private Health Services Plan
                          -IT-339R2 Meaning of private health services plans
                          -IT-529 Flexible employee benefit programs
                          -T-85R2 Health and welfare trusts for employees

                          我只所以提出T-85R2 Health and welfare trusts for employees,只是对你的research的一个补充,并不是说你的错误的方向。 其实我一直觉得PHSP和HAWP是同样的设计,只不过各有优点缺点。

                          比如PHSP其实也是一种设立好的trust,PHSP have very favourable tax consequences, 优点就是premium paid for PHSP deductible, 而且是non-taxable benefit. 但PHSP有一定的条件,它的expense cover和requirements都是有一定的条件的,比如Critical illness Insurance就不能 qualify for PHSP. 所以选择的人可能还要另买保险cover不cover的部分。 而且全年没雇员的情况下,自己和配偶只有$1,500 maximum deduction. Househod members有$750 maximum deduction。 看了些讨论,很多self-employed 也是通过cost plus和T1的Medical expenses deduction来组合完成自己的方案。

                          HAWP我不了解,但从我research的结果看,绝对是One option open for incorporated professionals is to self-insure medical and dental expenses . 向我前文说的,选什么取决medical insurance cover 多少,cover谁,cost是多少。 (顺便说一句Bill-C47 provided for a new type of emloyee benefit trust "Employee life and health Trust").

                          这些讨论让我对self-employed tax issues有了很多新的了解,因为时间和篇幅有限,不能展开,但是感谢老虎聪聪,侠客行和二月莺飞,我学到了很多东西。希望我们将来还有一同讨论问题的机会。

                          作为班主,我在最近的一些讨论中,没能 "hold" 住, 严肃道歉, 我面壁去了。更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                          • 虽然我之前说了不再发贴,但是还是觉得有必要讨论一些tax practice的总体原则,希望对从事tax的同学们有所帮助。同时,从技术层面上对这个主题进行一些分析,供大家参考。
                            本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛对于任何一个tax的问题,一般程序是:
                            1. Facts and assumptions
                            2. Issues
                            3. Relevant law and administrative policies
                            4. Analysis
                            5. Conclusion
                            以上5-step approach 是在专业税法训练时培养出来的,例如CICA TAX IN-DEPTH, MASTER OF TAXATION AT UNIVERSITY OF WATERLOO。 税务法院,上诉法院和最高法院也是基本运用这个approach。
                            另外,因为TAX领域太博大精深,所以用词方面需要十分谨慎。除非ACT明确“shall"/"shall not"等,我们一般在提供tax advice时使用"would", "it appears",...记得5年前美国的KPMG在tax opinions时就因为使用了"should" 输了官司,赔了几千万美金。

                            现在回到这个问题的技术层面。总体来说,公司方面的deductibility要考虑S.9,S.18(1)(a) and 18(1)(h) of the Act. 个人方面要考虑S.6(1)(a) (including 6(1)(a)(i)) and S.15(1) of the Act. 下面我逐一comment你的总结:

                            当LZ问"自雇人士的医保牙保是否可以从公司的账上实报实销?"他的问题是十分模糊的,我们并不知道所有需要的信息,所以没办法讨论。
                            - LZ从一开始,加上“我是有限公司。我在自己的有限公司领薪水。公司可以给员工买医疗保险(买药,看牙等)。这部分开销是公司税前的expense。我是否可以不买保险,直接把收据拿到自己的公司以同样的方式报销?区别就是我免除了保险公司这个middle man“ 我认为Facts and assumptions,and Issues就已经比较明确了:
                            - Facts and assumptions: LZ有个"公司"(corporation), 基本上自己就是sharesholder and employee(可能还有其他employee(s))。ta想不通过商业保险,直接在公司报销与商业保险等同的医药费,以尽可能避开任何中间环节,节约不必要的开支。
                            - Issues: tax consequences for the company and himself

                            1. 如果self-employed 没有公司的情况下,客户可以通过 Personal tax的 Medical expenses deduction来claim eligible medical expenses for them and their spouse。 这就是lemon_lime同学在最开始提出的建议,而且lemon_lime同学也强调这是在没有公司的情况下。
                            - lemon_lime同学的disclaimer很好,但是回答时没有看清“公司”这个前提。

                            2. 我能想到的是客户通过成立公司,买商业保险来解决Medical expenses。 一部分Insure premium可能可以deduct,但有可能要成为个人的taxable benefits。这种方法就是所以criss同学说"公司收入减去100,你的收入增加100。没省多少税吧。"但是这种方式也是有一定优势的,在这里就不具体分析了。
                            - criss同学的回答是错误的。S.6(1)(a)说value of benefits是个人的收入,注意except any benefit from...a private health services plan.

                            3. 就是通过Health &Wlfare Trust, 包括PHSP和HAWP.
                            - 为什么"就是通过Health &Wlfare Trust”呢?"Health &Wlfare Trust" is not defined in the Act while "private health services plan" is defined under s.248(1),完全两个不同的感念。

                            比如PHSP其实也是一种设立好的trust,PHSP have very favourable tax consequences, 优点就是premium paid for PHSP deductible, 而且是non-taxable benefit. 但PHSP有一定的条件,它的expense cover和requirements都是有一定的条件的,比如Critical illness Insurance就不能 qualify for PHSP. 所以选择的人可能还要另买保险cover不cover的部分。 而且全年没雇员的情况下,自己和配偶只有$1,500 maximum deduction. Househod members有$750 maximum deduction。 看了些讨论,很多self-employed 也是通过cost plus和T1的Medical expenses deduction来组合完成自己的方案。
                            - PHSP从定义上如何得出"PHSP其实也是一种设立好的trust"? s.248(1)的定义以及IT-339R2 Meaning of private health services plans好像没有说PHSP IS A TRUST。从实际操作,特别是我贴出来的CRA的TI来看,何来"PHSP其实也是一种设立好的trust"?
                            - CRITICAL ILLNESS INSURANCE: 不管通过何种方案,在2012联邦预算案时就已经是taxable benefit了。请查阅s.6(1)(e.1)。
                            - 不太明白为何“全年没雇员的情况下,自己和配偶只有$1,500 maximum deduction. Househod members有$750 maximum deduction”?估计是S.20.01 of the Act。但是,S.20.01只是用于"in computing an individual's income for a taxation year from a business..."。也就是只适用sole proprietorship。
                            - 最后,想提醒一下,CRA在其一份TI中明确:sole proprietorship不能使用self-adminstered PHSP.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                            • Types of trusts
                              本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛我没做过personal tax和small business tax, 我觉的术业有专功, 不了解的东西更应该学习. 先说Issues, 就是要寻找方法去提供employee benefits, 基本上三种方法:

                              1. Traditional Insurance.
                              2. Paying out of Pocket.
                              3. HWT including Private Health Services Plan (PHSP), and Health and welfare plan (HAWP)

                              然后再做逐一分析, 我觉得二月莺飞说的很对的一个地方就是, 对于small business, 要提供解决问题的方法, 光做case analysis,是行不通的。 PHSP 是每一个self-employee都知道的deducting expenses, 就和M&E一样. 但是我更感兴趣的是二月莺飞说的新的工具(HAWP),因为我不知道, 所以有了解的兴趣, 对于small business, 多了解一种选择, 没什么错误。

                              我不熟悉HAWP是如何操作的,但我知道PHSP是以trust的形式在金融机构比如Manulife就可以办理的,操做每一笔medical expense也是要交一定的费用的。 HAWP基本上和PHSP的概念是一样的,当二月莺飞说建立trust,并一定是self-employee要想建立一个personal trust 那样从新起草法律文件的trust,而这个HAWP很可能象PHSP一样在金融机构设计好的, 只不过费用不同,用户不同而已.

                              您所做的tax research,so far,是我能做到的, case analysis也能写出花来,但二月莺飞在安省已经做过HAWP的compliance,肯定对PHSP有一定的经验, 所以我很想听听她的HAWP compliance经验。这是我所没有的经历。 如果您也没有这个经历,甚至不了解HAWP,也不了解安省针对private health services plan的相关税法,我觉得您的结论过于武断了。

                              尺有所短,寸有所长,学习的过程就是相互的提高,至少这是我来这个论坛的原因。更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
                    • 光纸上谈兵能解决客户问题吗?我说的建立HAWP就是建立PHSP,不管是self-administered 还是professionally administered,要想让medical expense deductible to employer but not taxable to employee就必需有个qualified PHSP(HAWP)。这不就是S.248(1) 所要求的吗?
                      你我意见的分歧是在于要怎样建立PHSP。就算按你所说的“sign个employment contract,明白写出公司负责reimburse medical expenses“ ,这种contract本身也就是个土"HAWP"。问题是自己这么写写就能成为qualified PHSP了吗?随便建立个trust 也不一定是qualified PHSP。要建立个qualified PHSP不是你想象得那么简单,这不是我的能力范围也不是我的工作范围,我就不多嘴了,我只提供HAWP建立后相关的compliance服务 。
    • Where would I open a HAWP account? Banks?
      • 您呢? 不能一笔一笔算, 得找个明白tax和small business的会计全盘看一下您的tax planning. 二月莺飞已经提醒您了, HAWP不一定适合您,明儿为了省两分钱,花两块钱成本,您又该四处骂会计了.
      • 这东西不见得适合你。 TRUST费用把省得那点税都吃了。这就是为什么推行不起来的结果。